oncord, November 4
DFP: I want to start with a very open-ended question. What is your personal statement of faith? What do you believe is the basic message of the Bible and of the Gospel?
Gene Robinson: The story of the prodigal son is as close to my statement of faith as I can come, which is that we all fall short of what God would want us to be and we are all headed back home toward God. God comes running down the road to welcome us back with great celebration, and no one is excluded from God’s extravagant love. I think that’s the message of Scripture, both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Scriptures, and it’s my experience of God.
DFP: What is that experience of God?
GR: In a world that tells me I’m not smart enough, skilled enough, thin enough, [or] rich enough, God gets through to me with the message that I am loved beyond my wildest imagination. My worth is given to me by God, not earned.
DFP: What is the Episcopal Diocese of New Hampshire doing to advance the causes of social and economic justice?
GR: Virtually all of our parishes have a food and/or clothing program for the poor. The Diocese is involved heavily in ministry to men and women who are incarcerated… The Diocese, parishes and individual Episcopalians are invested in the New Hampshire Community Loan Fund, which works to secure permanent affordable housing around the state, and we’ve been involved in that for twenty years. By virtue of my election as bishop, New Hampshire has become a leader in the acceptance and inclusion of LGBT people. Many of our parishes have programs to both green up the parish as well as raise awareness for individuals about being environmentally responsible. And many of our parishes have relationships with Anglicans overseas, particularly those in third world countries, and are supportive of development programs related to the Millennium Development Goals. So those would just be some of the ways in which I think we are living out a ministry of justice in New Hampshire and in the world.
DFP: You are the only openly gay sitting bishop in the history of the Christian church. What message do you have for students in the GLBT community?
GR: It is only a matter of time until other gay and lesbian priests are elected to the office of bishop. I believe we are poised as the Episcopal Church, to stand up and say to the rest of the Anglican Communion, you may not understand or agree with us, but we feel we must be the church God is calling us to be at this time. And that means the full inclusion of LGBT people in the life, ministry, and leadership of the Episcopal Church. It’s my great hope that we will make that crystal clear at next summer’s General Convention.
I would also say in addition to leadership in the church, I believe more and more Episcopalians are committed to the notion that the church is for all of God’s children, not just for some.
DFP: Outside of a church context, for GLBT students who may be unchurched, is there a message of inspiration just for their daily lives?
GR: I believe that 95% of the discrimination that LGBT people have experienced has come at the hands of religious communities of all types, but especially the three Abrahamic faiths $mdash; Judaism, Islam, and Christianity $mdash; and I believe it is going to take religious voices from those communities to undo the harm that has been done to them in the name of God. And so what I would say to the wider community is trust that there are voices within religious communities who are working hard to join the fight for LGBT rights, including marriage equality, and though most LGBT people are rightfully suspicious of religious organizations, I believe they can now look to religious communities for support in their fight for equal rights.
DFP: A number of readers have expressed interest in your personal story. You had a wife and children when you came out of the closet, although I know you had discussed your sexuality with her before marriage. Was coming out hard for you? What prompted your decision?
GR: The decision to come out was really a joint decision with my former wife, who was very supportive, and the question really was what does it mean to live a life of integrity? And not to do so sets a very bad example for our children. In the marriage vows, we promised to honor each other in the name of God and ultimately we decided that the best way to keep that vow to honor each other was to let each other go. Twenty-two years later, I still have a terrific relationship with my former wife, and we have successfully parented our two children to the ages of thirty-one and twenty-seven.
DFP: How did you explain issues of sexuality to a four-year-old?
GR:(smiles) Well, I started with the eight-year old. I asked her if she knew what a gay or lesbian person was, and our housekeeper at the time was a lesbian, so she very quickly said, “Yes, most girls like boys, and most boys like girls, but some girls like girls and some boys like boys.” Which when you think about is about as good a definition as you can get! (laughs)
And so I said to her that I had discovered that I was one of those boys that liked boys, and that her mom and I would be getting divorced, etc. etc., and we read a children’s book which was published in Denmark. You couldn’t get anything like that published in the United States back then, which shows how much times have changed. Literally, I had to get this book from Denmark, and it was about two men and their happy life with their daughter, and the daughter’s mom. And we read that book together, and that night after we put Jamie to bed, she called from her room into mine, “Daddy I hope you find a Bill (or whatever the guy in the book’s name was) some day!” …
So then the 8 year-old and I told the 4 year-old. And it just didn’t seem all that weird to them. In some ways I think telling children at that age is easier than telling a teenager, who is not in anyway trying to stick out of the crowd or be strange, and so they never had a problem with it. Their mom got remarried very soon… I met [my partner] Mark soon after [my ex-wife] Boo was remarried, and we dated for about a year and a half before he moved up here, so they saw each of us with partners and… anything that made their mom or dad that happy, they were happy with.
DFP: What is your interpretation of Bible verses in Paul’s epistles and Leviticus that condemn homosexuality?
GR: All of the references, and there are only seven, in Scripture that deal with same-sex behavior are negative. The question is do they answer the questions we are asking today? And I would maintain no, they do not. Sodom and Gomorrah involves homosexual rape. Leviticus talks about preserving male seed. Sperm was considered to contain everything necessary for life, and therefore to do anything with male seed that didn’t lead to procreation was an abomination, including masturbation or birth control, that is, where you would withdraw from the woman prior to ejaculation. All of those were banned and all were punishable by death. The New Testament references seem to be about a kind of relationship that was known in Roman and Greek culture in which an older man would take an adolescent boy under his wing, teach him the ways of the world, [and] use him sexually. We would call that child abuse today. All of those references are negative, but they don’t address what we are asking today, which is faithful, monogamous life-long intentioned relationships between people of the same sex.
And remember that the whole notion of sexual orientation is a construction, a psychological construction, only about 125 years old. Everyone in Biblical times was assumed to be heterosexual, so to act in a same-sex manner was to be acting against their nature. It was only 125 years ago that someone first posited the notion that a certain minority of us might be born affectionate to the same sex rather than the opposite sex.
Therefore for us to act in a heterosexual manner would be to act against our nature. So you can’t take a modern day concept like sexual orientation and read it back into an ancient text as if that’s what they meant.
DFP: Many students at Dartmouth, including most Christians I have spoken with, struggle in a secular atmosphere where many student activities and even classroom experiences can be disrespectful of their faith. What words of encouragement would you give them?
GR: I am an advocate of the separation of church and state, and I believe that anyone’s faith ought to be able to withstand a critique from the culture or from academia or from wherever. I actually think there are many, many ways in which the culture should be critical of us because the history of the church is littered with awful distortions of the faith $mdash; the Crusades, the Inquisition, intolerance in general. I also believe that anyone espousing God’s values is going to be misunderstood and criticized by secular culture because from its inception, Christianity was a counter-cultural movement. Unfortunately, when Constantine was converted to Christianity, whether for religious or political reasons (we don’t know for sure), in a sense we crawled into bed with the power, or the powers, that we were meant to be critical of. So I don’t believe the church lives up to its counter-cultural nature or its counter-cultural mission as much as it should, but when it does it will undoubtedly be criticized.
I’ll give you an example. Shouldn’t the church be critiquing the recent economic meltdown in terms of the values that were bought into by most everyone around the world? Greed, get rich quick, make a lot of money no matter what, executive level compensation, etc etc. You know, the church has something to say about all those things, or should have something to say about all those things. It’s very easy to blame Wall Street for greed, but we were the ones who had our 401k money in the stock market, demanding a greater and greater profit or else we would move to a different mutual fund. So we’re all complicit. What I wonder is whether the church will have the courage to question the culture in that way.
DFP: Many of the students who will read this article are either agnostics or atheists. What is your message for those readers?
GR: Tell me about the God you don’t believe in, and the chances are I don’t believe in that God either. Let me tell you about the God I believe in.
DFP: What is your opinion about the militant atheist writers like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens who have been topping the best seller charts lately? I am particularly interested in your response to Sam Harris, who says that moderate and liberal persons of faith, like you and me, are just providing cover for the extremists.
GR: It’s interesting; I met and got to talk a lot with Christopher Hitchens in May at the Hay-on-Wye Festival in Wales. My sense is that the church and the God that they rail against is the church and God of 50 years ago. 50 years ago, I would have been right with them. It’s as if they haven’t checked out a church lately…
I think there are two streams within mainstream religion. One is to be intimidated by the Religious Right and to say nothing, and the other is to take the Religious Right head-on. I would be in that latter category, and I believe that a great many mainline denominational people are with me in that. So when I read those writers it’s like there is a time warp. It’s like they are describing a church that I don’t know, and so I feel like they are fighting a war that’s over. And that’s not to say that there aren’t religious conservatives and they shouldn’t be criticized and held to account, but for the most part liberal Christianity is getting on with the Gospel. The things they criticize I don’t see in my own church. And it’s really funny, I just have this kind of creepy feeling like, of course they would think these things, but that church hasn’t existed for a while.
DFP: There’s been a lot of controversy within the Anglican Communion and the Episcopal Church about you and your ministry. What do you see as the future of the Communion, and in a broader sense, mainline Protestantism?
GR: I believe that we will possibly, as soon as next summer, make it known that we intend to consecrate bishops who are otherwise qualified candidates irrespective of their sexual orientation, and that we will begin the process of developing rites for the blessing of same sex unions. I don’t know how the Anglican Communion will ultimately deal with that, but I feel that that is where we are moving as a church. And I think that for the most part I am very hopeful about the Episcopal Church getting through this intact. There will be some who will leave over this, but I think there will be far fewer than has been threatened, and that new people will come to the church because of that prophetic pastoral stance.
Hanover, November 9
DFP: What is the biggest justice problem facing the United States today?
GR: When we met the other day, I probably would have said race, but we certainly made a big step forward [with the election]. It’s not over. I’m torn between saying racism and the increasing divide between rich and poor. I think there are connections between those two, but obviously each has other dimensions. When we look at who is poor we see a disproportionate number of people of color amongst the poor, but I also think the issue of the divide between the haves and have-nots is… international in scope and has reached huge proportions. It will be interesting to see how the economic meltdown will affect the trajectory of that. We’ve just seen the rich getting filthily richer and it’ll be interesting to see if any of that changes with the economic crisis that we are in.
Twenty years ago, the average executive of a company was making sixteen times that of the lowest paid, and now the average executive is making 400 times the lowest paid. I think that’s just an astounding injustice, and it shows that unfettered and unregulated capitalism can be very dangerous.
DFP: What do you believe is the proper relationship between faith and politics?
GR: My faith shapes my values, and then I take those values out into the public square and argue for them based not on my religion but on the Constitution. So, religion plays a huge role in who I am and what I value, but I think it’s inappropriate to say that anyone else should agree with me because God says it’s so. God may have convinced me of the rightness of those values, but then I must convince others of their rightness based on civil, secular discourse.
DFP: I know you’ve spoken with President-elect Barack Obama. Could you tell me about that conversation?
GR: His campaign sought me out as part of their outreach efforts to communities of faith. I followed up on that and eventually had three conversations with him in which we talked about lots of things. I was particularly wanting to know about his stand on the U.N. Millennium Development Goals and whether or not he thought funding them, not just being for them but actually funding them, was a possibility in his administration. We talked about LGBT rights, and of course we talked about the war. And we also talked about the stresses and strains of being the first and how difficult it is to keep your balance when your enemies are trying to make you into the devil and your supporters are trying to make you into an angel, and you know that you’re neither. This all took place a year ago, in May and June, so it was before he was really on anybody’s radar screen. Hillary Clinton was still the presumed nominee, and he looked crazy except that I saw something genuine in him that really sold me on him right from the very beginning. I pressed him on a number of different matters, then ultimately I endorsed him.
DFP: You
were the only diocesan bishop not invited to the communion-wide Lambeth Conference this summer by the Archbishop of Canterbury. You’ve said his decision caused you much personal pain. What do you think of ++Rowan’s leadership?
GR: Usually I deal with my detractors by remembering that usually their response to me comes out of fear, and I experienced a lot of fear from the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Lambeth Conference in general. Fear of change, fear of moral ambiguity, fear of “the other,” fear of opening up a discussion of all of human sexuality, and when I remember that my enemies are fearful, it helps me not to hate them back but to come up with a more loving and productive response. Jesus didn’t say we wouldn’t have enemies; he just tells us to love them. And that does not mean liking them, [but] treating them with respect and honor, and that’s what I tried to do at the Lambeth Conference.
DFP: There is a story you frequently tell about meeting a bishop, I believe from India, at the Lambeth Conference who opposes your ministry and asked you for solutions, and you said you didn’t know but that he would always be in your heart. Did meeting other bishops from around the world change your understanding of the opposition?
GR: You have to understand I met very few of them, because I wasn’t allowed in the conference, so this was a very treasured experience for me. He stood and told me how his life and ministry had been affected by the fact of my consecration and how the Anglican Church had been branded “the gay church” and how this made his work more difficult, particularly with other faiths. And the miraculous thing was that he described that without any rancor or anger or blame in his voice. He was simply describing to me what is. And I said to him that I didn’t know an answer that would take away his difficulty and preserve my integrity. I said what I was pretty sure of is that he needs to continue being the church he feels called to be, and we need to continue being the church we feel we are called to be. And I said to him, I will carry you around in my heart. I will always be mindful that what I do and say affects you even though you are halfway around the world.
DFP: What has been the most moving personal story and meeting of your entire ministry?
GR: I don’t know if I can name just one, so I’ll tell you a story of how this all got started. I came out in’86, but I did not speak publicly, like at a conference or to a larger audience, about being gay until’91 or’92. It was at a very large church in the Midwest and I knew the rector there. He had invited me to come, and I made the decision to tell my own story along with delivering a couple of papers on sexuality and homosexuality.
Many years later I met a young woman in a seminary who told me that she was Christian because of me and those papers and talks that I gave that weekend in the Midwest. She was not even present; she was completely unchurched and had wandered into the church where they had copies of those papers… She converted to Christianity and went on to go to seminary and become a priest because of having read these papers that I had presented, and she’s now serving at one of the pre-eminent cathedrals in the country. And it was the first time that I think I understood the power of my story and its potential for bringing people to Jesus. You spend most of your life taking your Christianity for granted, and it never occurs to you that your story could change anyone’s life. And then it happens, and you can never quite be satisfied again with not being a good steward of that gift. Like I was saying today in church, my ministry now brings me in touch with so many unchurched or formerly unchurched people, and while I love my work with faithful Episcopalians, I find it incredibly exciting to be reaching out to people who are beyond the church and having a part to play in drawing them in.
DFP: Do you get tired of talking about Lambeth, homosexuality, or Anglican conflicts?
GR: I was really tired of talking about it at the end of my six weeks in England this summer. I laughingly said to my staff I don’t want to hear the word gay, or Lambeth for a long time.
No, I usually don’t get tired of it at all, because it’s just so important, and I feel so blessed to be able to play this role and use God in this way. But, like everyone else, I have my days and times when I just get really tired. Having the diocese to take care of really saves me from that, because as the bishop of a diocese, I cannot be a one-issue person.
DFP: When we were sitting in your office last week, I noticed a large pair of Incredible Hulk hands on the shelf. Of all the objects on your office walls and shelves, what is the most meaningful?
GR: It is a hand written note that I received, it was actually hand-delivered to me the night before my consecration, written to me by Matthew Shepard’s mother Judy. In it she says, “I know that Matthew will be smiling down upon you tomorrow.”
The reason I do all this and the reason I don’t get tired is I keep remembering all those Matthew Shepards who have either been killed or all the people who sort of have a living death from discrimination or hatred. I do all this to change the world for them, and of course Matthew Shepard was an Episcopalian. His funeral was done by the Bishop of Wyoming, who is a good friend of mine…This year in March, I’m being honored by the Matthew Shepard Foundation. This is the 10th anniversary of his death, so just having that connection to him through his mother and to think about his blessing on what I’m doing is really important to me.
DFP: What did I forget to ask? What do Dartmouth students need to hear?
GR: I think it’s that God is alive and well and desirous of a relationship with each one of us, and that God is knowable and that the church is changing $mdash; not everywhere, not fast enough, but there are churches that are finding 21st century language to put around their experience of God, and where that’s happening, it can be very exciting. Often the church we rail against is not the church that’s there anymore…. A 13th century mystic, Meister Eckhart, said, “God is the newest thing there is.” And that’s what I find exciting about being a Christian.
For more information about Bishop Robinson, check out his autobiography, In the Eye of the Storm: Swept to the Center from God (available from Seabury Books), or read through his Lambeth blog, http://www.canterburytalesfromthefringe.blogspot.com/.